ANNOUNCEMENT

[spnreversemod.livejournal.com]

There have been a few folks who've expressed concern with one of the RBB fics that included older versions of the actors' children in its character line-up. This is the first time this has come up in the RBB (under the current administration) and we confess, it flew under our collective radars. The fic in question is PG-13, and the worst that happens is Show-level violence and some swearing, so we will let the fic stand.

However, in future rounds, the actors' children will be off-limits. Thank you to everyone for their attention and care!

Comments

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[dolnmoon.livejournal.com]

Excellent choice.
I had no problem with using their children, it's not like they were harmed or marred, physically or in reputation. Besides we use their siblings and parents in fics all of the time, harmlessly using their offspring in an honorable manner shouldn't be offensive. I for one wrote a tiny pg fic depicting J2 and JJ at a tea party.

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[keep-waking-up.livejournal.com]

I am very grateful that the mods are addressing this matter. I think it's one that a lot of people can be confused about, and I think that shows in some of the conversation that's going on about it. I hope that this post, and others like it, can serve as conversation starter so that both sides of the issue can understand each other.

I understand the point that dolnmoon is making; we do use J2's parents and siblings in fic (although I myself have begun to be uncomfortable with even that, but that's a discussion for another time). However, I think the crucial difference is that J2's parents/siblings are already adults. True, they do not put themselves in the public eye the way that J2 do, with the exception of Alan Ackles (and this is why I myself no longer use them in stories), but they are above 18. I just have a lot of issues with the use of children--especially those as young as JJ, Thomas, Maison, Sheppard, and West--in ANY form of fanfiction, especially since it was posted in a forum that also hosts a large amount of fics that slash their fathers.

The point I'm trying to make here is that just because they aren't having sex, being killed, or otherwise harmed in this fic, as well as others like it, the fact that they are SO underage in real life makes me--and I think others like me--uncomfortable with their use at all, period. That's why I'm glad that this comm will bann their use starting next year.

No offense to the artist or the author; they probably didn't even realize the issues that myself and others might have.

(frozen comment)

[unplugged32.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the story in question but as long as they aren't underage I wouldn't object. Many - if not most - RPF authors include the actors siblings/parents/extended families (including nieces and nephews who are small children) in stories and there haven't been objections up until now. That said, I support your decision because I hate when authors and readers become embroiled in conflict, it taints the whole challenge and ruins the fun. Setting clear guidelines regarding any issues that can be considered controversial is always a good idea!

Just to add; I hope that those who do find the story offensive express themselves in a way that offers constructive criticism and not in anger because there is nothing to be gained from that you know???

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[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

This is how I feel about the fic written for my prompt - the pairing was so innocent it was almost Gen, and the kids came out looking fine. I wrote an RPF fic about the SPN kids as young adults making a "Cooking Fast and Fresh with West" video for Yuletide a couple years back, and I don't think fics like that hurt anyone.

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[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

>> No offense to the artist or the author; they probably didn't even realize the issues that myself and others might have.

No, I realized there may be issues. If the story written for my prompt had been laden with graphic sex, I would have encouraged we go in another direction. But in this case, the writer and I were on the same page just about the whole way through. The story is really very innocent pairing-wise. It's much more focused on the friendship between the kids and the supernatural threat.

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[etoile-etiolee.livejournal.com]

I'm glad the problem was adressed. I do not judge anyone -hell, I write mpreg and this fandom is so tolerant and accepting- and this is my personnal opinion, but I try to keep away from fics including the J's and Misha's kids. I can't even pinpoint what makes me uneasy when there is no underage sex or violence involved it's just a general feeling, although I'm sure this autor's fic is a good story and I intend in no way to be disrespectful.

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[annie46.livejournal.com]

I confess I wrote a story about an older Thomas finding out that his dad was with Jensen...I did angst over it for a long time but decided to post it anyway as Thomas was a lot older in that fic (as he is in the fic that has been written for this challenge). In some ways these are almost fictional characters because we cannot possibly know what the kids will be like when they do grow up.

However I understand how some people might be upset by all of this even though I'm not. In fact the thing that disturbs me most is people posting random pics of the little kids on Facebook or Twitter...

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[safiyabat.livejournal.com]

This is a great way to handle the situation. Thank you, mods.

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[bt-kady.livejournal.com]

I'm with KeepWakingUp on this. I feel that, because they are currently still children, Thomas, JJ, Shepherd, Maison and West (and any other kids that follow) should not be allowed in ANY fic until they are adults. If fic writers want to give the characters children in fics, they should be fictional kids and not the real ones. This is a line that should NEVER be crossed, I don't care how innocently the fics are written or how PG.

While I appreciate that the mods will not allow prompts like this in the future, I personally feel this one should have been pulled.

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[alycat.livejournal.com]

Personally, I find it a very big difference between writing about grown up people, and aging up kids and slashing them (PG or not, it's still slash) for our own amusement.

Quite a few challenges, comms and memes out there actually do ban the USE of the kids in fic.

It's about respect for the kids, and for their fathers. I can't even imagine the horror of finding out people wrote fic about my kids. The kids are not part of our fandom, they should be left out of ALL fics, no matter the rating of the fic. We write for our own amusement. Kids are not for our amusement.

I might be a kink writer, but even I have limits.

(frozen comment)

[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

>> In some ways these are almost fictional characters because we cannot possibly know what the kids will be like when they do grow up.

Definitely agree with this. Sometimes I wonder why people change the lives and personalities of J2 in order to write a fic about them being mob bosses or gunslingers or something; why don't they just write an original story? But I realize people do it (one reason, anyway) because original stories don't get any attention on the internet, and they want their story to actually be read. This is similar. The actors have let us into their lives by posting info and pictures about their children, and sometimes we express our interest in their personal lives by writing RPF. Sometimes it's harmless, and sometimes we cross lines. Where that line is is up to the individual.

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[bt-kady.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!!! I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling this way.

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[keep-waking-up.livejournal.com]

For the most part, I haven't had any problems with your responses to these various messages. It's clear we share different viewpoints on the "lines", as you put it, when it comes to J2's and Misha's kids. However, I found this particular response very problematic for a number of reasons and thought I should address it, since it is exactly WHY I take issue with the involvement of children in fictional works.

Setting aside your bit about only writing RPF AU stories because original stories don't get attention (which I would argue with fiercely and also say is a bit offensive to anyone who writes RPF AU), you said:

The actors have let us into their lives by posting info and pictures about their children, and sometimes we express our interest in their personal lives by writing RPF.

This is PRECISELY why I take issue with the involvment of EXTREMELY UNDERAGE children in RPF. The actors do let us into their lives--by necessity! They are public figures, they cannot hide their children, so they are forced to be open with us. Sometimes, as J2 do, they go beyond that and truly let us in. In return, we apparently repay them by writing fic about their kids? I don't know if you have children or not, but either way, please imagine children of yours being written about in a forum that also hosts some extremely NC-17 material, including a lot of fic of you fucking your best friend. If J2 knew that their kids were being written about, I'm not sure we'd ever see any pictures of them ever again.

We are all going to have our opinions. But this justification of yours rubs me entirely the wrong way. I'm sorry to have to respond in this matter, but I could not let this slide.

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[darcydelaney.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, everyone, I really didn't mean to offend anyone or make anyone feel uncomfortable. I just thought the prompt sounded like it could be a fun little adventure story, but I completely understand where you guys are coming from, too. Regardless of opinions, though, I wanted to say thank you for everyone being civil, with no giant arguments/trashing/name-calling or anything like that. I'm having a little bit of an anxiety issue over this at the moment, so all the civility and level-headedness is very much appreciated.

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[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

>> Setting aside your bit about only writing RPF AU stories because original stories don't get attention

That's not what I said. I said it was ONE reason that people write them as RPF AUs.

>> The actors do let us into their lives--by necessity! They are public figures, they cannot hide their children, so they are forced to be open with us.

Actually, they can hide their children. No one forces them to do anything. There are musicians and other celebs who have kids I have actually never seen. In fact, I have trouble keeping their names straight sometimes because they are somehow kept out of the public eye. Good example? Jon Bon Jovi. For years, I didn't know how many kids he had or their names and had never seen a single picture of any of them. Even with the popularity of the internet, I still couldn't tell you much about them and didn't even see a pic of them until the last few years. I couldn't tell you what their middle names are. I've never even heard them speak. And he's been my favorite singer for 30 years. It can be done. I'm not saying that J2 and Misha deserve to have lurid fics written about their children because they post many pictures and videos of them on the 'net. I'm just saying that fics are bound to happen when we are let into their lives as much as we are.

>> please imagine children of yours being written about in a forum that also hosts some extremely NC-17 material, including a lot of fic of you fucking your best friend

I don't understand why this is an issue. This could describe a large amount of the comms that host SPN fanfic period.

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[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

You know, I really didn't want to comment in this post, because I know my opinion is in the minority and I don't really need the headache. But please consider the implications of what you just said here. You effectively accused these people of being attracted to small children just because they collaborated on a story that takes their names and rudimentary aspects of their backstory and translates them on to MUCH OLDER PEOPLE. You all can argue about the moral gray area of using IRL children in fic all day, I understand why so many people are so strongly offended by it. I myself am not entirely comfortable with it. But when you start accusing people you don't know of things like this, you are not on the high horse you think you are. I don't think 98% of those of us who write in fandom want people to start knocking on our door and accusing us of actually practicing a lot of the things we write about. Take a step back. You can disagree with the content of the story, but there is no call to start accusing the creators of being attracted to the kids.

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[spnreversemod.livejournal.com]

Thanks, everyone, for a civil conversation. Before things get contentious, we're going to freeze this thread. It's important that folks had the opportunity to express their opinions, and that's been done. If you would like to continue the conversation, please do so at your own journals. Again, we appreciate the input.

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[dolnmoon.livejournal.com]

Reading the comments that I didn't mean to spur with my little opinion. I doubt anyone will ever see eye to eye on this subject and there will always be fan works out there that depict the boys children in many ages and stages of life, in all situations both with their families and with their father's as a couple/couples. We can't stop that and as long as no one is being hurt in them, the authors/artists shouldn't be chastised for their artistry. As always, don't like, don't read/view.

I am pretty sure that the boys, especially Jared, knew full well what he was subjecting his sons too by exposing them to fans. He knew that they would at some point become a part of the fandom. He is a very smart man who has no misunderstanding as to what fans do on the internet to he and Jensen. Jensen doesn't flaunt JJ as much as Jared does his sons but then Jensen is more private but he knows that she can't be sheltered from the fans either. Just by being his daughter it makes her fodder for fans. I am pretty sure they just hope that we treat them with respect.

I agree wholeheartedly with the mods on this issue and banning the use of the rl children is a good idea, if for no other reason than to keep down any criticism about the subject matter. No author or artist enjoys having their work be the center of negative attention.

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[sailorhathor.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say thank you to cherie_morte for saying what she said. :)